Hold and double tap

Hi folks,

I'm searching for a way to send a midi message from a button by pressing him for about 2 seconds and by pressing him quick two times in a row. I think it must have something to do with the rules, but I would be glad for some examples. Already searched the stantons preset but I'm lost there.

Regards Tristan

Hi Tristan,

I can help you out there (it was me that wrote the Stanton presets!).

Let me get this right before I do/show you any code...

You want the button to:

a) Send one message if it is held for 2 seconds.
- You want this to send the message at (exactly) 2 seconds if still held?
- What happens if I release before? Nothing?

b) Send another message if double tapped?
- You want this message to only be sent on the second press?
- Does the second press need to be done within 2 seconds of the first press?
- What happens if you only press once?

Let me know!

Scott

Attigo wrote:Hi Tristan,

I can help you out there (it was me that wrote the Stanton presets!).

Let me get this right before I do/show you any code...

You want the button to:

a) Send one message if it is held for 2 seconds.
- You want this to send the message at (exactly) 2 seconds if still held?
- What happens if I release before? Nothing?

b) Send another message if double tapped?
- You want this message to only be sent on the second press?
- Does the second press need to be done within 2 seconds of the first press?
- What happens if you only press once?

Let me know!

Scott

Dear Scott,

thanks for your efforts.

a) Yes, if it is held for 2 seconds.
- Yes, exactly at 2 seconds.
- If released before 2 seconds the normal message should be send (e.g. when pressed for a fraction of a time)

b)
- Yes, the message should only be send on the second press
- Yes, the second press need to be done within 2 seconds of the first press
- If only pressed once the normal message should be send (e.g. when pressed for a fraction of a time)

I didnt thought about all the possibilities, I'm not this familiar with this kind of thinking.

Regards Tristan

Thats no problem, but a couple of more questions I forgot to ask before...

On the double tap message, will it send the message on release or on press of the second tap? And also, when you only press once, will this send the message on press or release of the button?

Sorry in the late reply...

thanks,
Scott

The message should be send on Press for the double tap as well as for the singular one. Thanks for getting back to me.

Ok, so we have a little problem, if you want it to be on press on the first time, it will always trigger, even if you double tap. Ideally, it would need to wait and see if there is a second tap before it sends the message, you get what I mean? Un;ess on the double tap you want it to send both messages, the first then a different on second tap?

Sorry for all the issues...!

Scott

No you are right. I havent thought about that. Than it should wait to see if there is another press send.

Ok, well I am going to do this, but I think 2 seconds is too long, I'll give you the code and then you can try and edit yourself...

Scott

ignore my 2 seconds worry, I got confused and thought you meant the double tap detection time, sorry. I have it all working, but can you tell me the messages for:

- The incoming message from your controller
- The message you want to send from a single press
- The message you want to send when the button is held for 2 seconds
- The message you want to send when the button is double tapped

Thanks!

Scott

Ok, haven't heard from you in a while, so I'll just give you the code, I can explain later if you need me to:
In the example I just used the note 90 00 7F/00, you just need to replace this with your button input and I used 90 00 7F as the first button output, 90 01 7F as the second and 90 02 7F as the third, again, just replace these with what you want...

Hope this helps!

Scott

Coming back to this thread.
I'm trying to use the double tap preset but in a little more complicated way and I can't figure out how to do it.
On one side I'm using an incremental counter, that does :

1st tap -> CC1
2nd tap -> CC2
1st tap -> CC1 etc.

I would like to reverse it after a double tap, that would be :

Double Tap : CC2 (or CC3 whatever)
1st tap -> CC2
2nd tap -> CC1
1st tap -> CC2 etc.

An then it works as before on a single tap again, using another message to go back to the former counter, maybe ?

Can someone help ? Thanks.

This is what I did but it works only twice then it starts messing around.

[x] Translator 1: Button Press (Double Tap Detection)
Incoming: MIDI B0 0A 7F
Rules:
  gc=gc+1
  if gc>=2 then gc=2
Outgoing: One-shot timer "Double Tap Detection": 300 ms delay

[x] Translator 2: Button Release
Incoming: MIDI B0 0A 00
Rules: gb=0
Outgoing: (none)

[x] Translator 4: Double Tap Output
Incoming: On timer "Double Tap Detection"
Rules:
  if gc==2 then skip next 2 rules
  gc=0
  exit rules, skip Outgoing Action
  gc=0
  exit rules, execute Outgoing Action
Outgoing: Activate Next Preset

Translator 5: Output CC1 if ga=0
INCOMING: MIDI B0 0A 7F
RULES:
if ga!=0 then exit rules, do not execute action
OUTGOING: MIDI B0 6E 00 B0 14 02

Translator 6: Output CC2 if ga=1
INCOMING: MIDI B0 0A 7F
RULES:
if ga!=1 then exit rules, do not execute action
OUTGOING: B0 14 00 B0 6E 01

Translator 7: Increment Counter
INCOMING: MIDI B0 0A 7F
RULES:
ga=ga+1
if ga>=2 then ga=0
OUTGOING: <none>

Preset activated in Translator 4 is my incremental counter reversed (2nd message first, then 1st etc.)
I found a way to go back to the first preset, by taping another pad.

Is there a cleaner way, one that would work steadily and every time ?

Anybody home for some help ? Thanks you.

Anybody home ?? I read you guys are answering questions here and there today. I posted 3 times for different things : no answer. ??? Thanks.

Hi mocker

Sorry for the slow reply

I'll sit down with this once I get home from work tonight and plug away a solution for you. Just to be clear, you want the button to do a simple toggle (CC 1 one one press, CC 2 on second press, CC 1 on third press, etc.) until it is double tapped and then you want the CC 3 to be sent out, but the next tap is CC 2, followed by CC 1 followed by CC 2 until double tapped again? I'm just confused as to the exact functionality, but I think I can cobble together a good starting point.

Good, I'm not alone anymore
I made my way through it using a bunch of preset changes + the rule I described earlier and it actually works. But I'm sure there is a cleaner way. I'll lmake a detailed description of how the leds should react, as clear as possible, so you're able to tell me if an all rule approach is possible. Keep you posted tomorrow.

Definitely. LEDs can be a real pain to get working right, but once you find the right way it's all smooth sailing.

Here is my led map.

I'm using a KMI Softstep USB footswitch to control Ableton Live's looper.

The looper uses one "big button" that does 5 tasks : rec, play, overdub, stop (double press) and clear (hold) (ONLY when the loop is stopped). Another button for undo/redo. Good, so far.

In Live, record is displayed in red, play in green, overdub in orange.

(Let's forget about orange, though I can get it on the Softstep by using red & green leds together, but that would make things even more complicated and I choose red/green alternation, largely enough to know if you're in rec/ovdb or play mode.)

I'd like the Softstep's leds ro reflect each sate exactly, so I don't have to watch the MacBook's screen.

Now about the complexity of the whole thing :
There are 2 options : one with the button's hold function, CLEAR, and the other without, that is to use another pad for clearing the loop. That's what I'm using for the moment, to simplify things.

So we have :

PAD 1: record/overdub- red led blinking
PAD 1: play- green led blinking
PAD 1: stop- green led (still) ->double press)
PAD 1: clear- led off -> hold (works only when loop was stopped) <- I could live without that one
PAD 4: undo/redo- nothing (while playing)
PAD 4: undo/redo- green led (still) (if loop was cleared)
PAD 6: clear- led off

When loop is cleared with PAD 6, if I want to undo the clear with PAD 4, it means returning to the Stop state : loop is back, with still green led on and ready to be played agin (green led blinking).

CCs 20-29 for red leds (there are 10 pads) and 110-119 for green leds.

Hope it's clear !

Finally it would be nice to have the orange led for the 3rd press (overdub), but then go back to green and not red. But then how do you go back to the beginning of the cycle (red, green, orange) ?
That is 1, 2, 3 then 2,3 - 2,3 - etc. AND when stop or clear was (double) pressed, go back to 1,2,3 etc.

Just found out the solution by using the ga=0 variable to set the counter back to 0 by pressing clear (PAD 6)

Wow, okay. Keep in mind I'm going this at the office and don't have Bome in front of me. I'm going to scratch together a few things and if it doesn't work I can throw something more formal together when I get home as the controller I'm using right now has a tri-colored LED setup, so I can replicate this.

Of course we have to handle everything within Bome, as Ableton won't help with LED states.

You were right to set your global variable to 0 with PAD 6. So did you solve that problem, or do you still need help with that side of it?

We could set a Clear command to Pad 1. It would be easiest to see your logic thus far so I don't duplicate a ton of commands, but if it were me I'd just set an extra timer that was longer than the hold detecting timer and when that one kicks in it sets off the LED and the MIDI command.

If you can add your commands in the forum (not as an attachment) I can work from there while I'm in the office. If you want to attach the bmtp file I can work on it when I get home this evening.

Thanks a lot for spending time on my case. Believe it or not, the time I spent alone struggling by myself finally payed off. I could finally get exactly what I needed. Even the orange state when overdubbing. Last but not least I got rid of every preset change ! Only relying on 2 presets, looper 1 & looper 2 and their rules. Thanks to earlier posts in this thread. Once I really got into the concept of variables and how to use them, I realized that almost anything is possible.

So to sum it up, here is my led setup now :

Looper 1
PAD 1: record- red led blinking
PAD 1: play- green led blinking
PAD 1: overdub- orange led blinking
PAD 1: stop- green led (still) ->double press
PAD 1: clear- led off -> hold (works only when loop was stopped)
PAD 2: undo/redo- no change (while playing)
PAD 2: undo/redo- green led (still) (if loop was cleared)
PAD 7: clear- led off
PAD 6: reverse
PAD 0: clear all loops - led off

Looper 2 : same as 1, with PADs 3, 4, 8 & 9

For those interested, my project is available on request

Update : I added control of the Softstep's display using the right CCs. That is ability to send PLAY, REC etc. to the display while pressing on the pads. Huge !

Congrats mocker.

I'm trying to do the same thing, more or less, with a Voodoo Lab Ground Control.

I'm using it in 4 preset/bank mode, so that each bank controls a different looper track. I can't use bank 0 for this, because, mysteriously, preset 01 sends no commands at all.

This isn't a big deal, though- I just started programming my patches starting at bank one, so:

11 is C0 03
12 is C0 04
13 is C0 05
14 is C0 06

bank two is:

21 is C0 07
22 is C0 08
23 is C0 09
24 is C0 0A

bank three is:

21 is C0 0B
22 is C0 0C
23 is C0 0D
24 is C0 0E


For anyone not familiar with Ableton Live's Looper, there is a multibutton which on the first press starts the recording, and then toggles between play and overdub. A double tap stops the loop, and a long press clears it (or, it should clear it. If I set a sustain pedal to do the looping, it works, but when I map Ground Control patch 11 to the "a" keystroke, everything works well except the long press. Definitely a question I'd love to have answered- it works when I hold the hotkey down on my laptop. I'd imagine that this has something to do with the up and down functions. I'll look into it.

I haven't figured that out, because I would love to have each of my loop patches set up like this:

X1 is multibutton
X2 is tap for stop/hold 1 sec for clear.
X3 is tap for octave down/hold is reverse
X4 is tap for octave up/hold is ? (I'll think of something)

I don't know that footswith so hard to answer. What I know is that on my KMI Softstep, I had to simulate a momentary switch to be able to use Live Looper's "big" button. Thus it works also as clear, when long-pressed. Actually I only use BMT to control the leds and to have them reflect the Looper's state. All the rest is done programming the fotswitch very basically (with its proprietary app) and assigning the right cc in Live. About using the same button for octave up or down and reverse (hold), I think you'll have a hard time making a difference between the 2 actions as "hold" sort of starts with a "tap" Not sure anyway…

Hi thuggybear

What you want to do is definitely possible, it's just not very easy. Each layer you want is going to work almost identically. You can layer a tap and a hold, it just has the "tap" send the message on release as opposed to pressing down. As far as keystrokes go, it can be strange. You will need to almost set the same kind of control with timers and holds with keystrokes (using key down and key up actions) as you do with MIDI, if that makes sense.

The problem you will run into with reverse, though, is it won't be rhythmic, if that's what you're looking for. What I'd maybe put some thought into is having X3 being octave down on tap, octave up on hold, and using X4 for Reverse in a single layer, no hold. That make sense? Keep in mind that just cause you HAVE the layers doesn't mean you need to necessarily use them. If you want to put together you MT preset and add it here I can take a look and put together some code. The stuff on this post already walks through most of what you want to do, it's just a question of finalizing your logic.

I have to say that I am pretty frustrated with the Ground Control. It seems no matter what I try and do with it, it has some limitation that renders it not even close to the money I paid for it.

For instance:

When it's in 10 Presets/Bank mode, all of the buttons are fairly easy to program, but since three of the five buttons in the front are assigned to useless (scrolling up or down through the presets) or non-performance-essential (bank down). Which means I can have only to of those front buttons assigned to things like [record] and [tap tempo].

I'm not totally uncoordinated, but standing on my left foot while delicately reaching my size 13EE feet to delicately tap a button with my toe is sort of the opposite of rock, you know?

HOWEVER, if you use the 4 presets/bank, 4 of the 5 front buttons become useful, but then you have to deal with other 8 pedals and their latching behavior. I see this as an asset on some things, actually- I could assign these things to mute tracks, for instance, which could be very handy. Having [reverse loop] on a latch could be very nice as well, since you'd have a convenient light telling you if you were playing forward or backward. If you didn't want octave up, it could toggle between half speed and full speed.

However, these 8 buttons become permanently assigned, which is also profoundly limiting.

Seriously thinking about returning this thing (why is there no plain vanilla mode, where all of the functions of all of the buttons can be assigned?), not using Live at all, and just using a MIDI mouse to scroll through loops I program and pre-record on Maschine, which I have to say is a hell of a lot more fun than dealing with this crap.

I can understand that frustration. You might want to look at other step controllers like the soft step by KMI, as an example, or a few others. There are options out there that can give you what you want, AND you can trigger loops in Live with your mouse as well.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck, and don't hesitate to come here for advice.

Thanks. I can't use the mouse, though, since I'm playing guitar at the same time.

Hi!

Unfortunately my controller doesn't send midi notes, only CC msg... is it possible to make double tap and long press using CC's?

@Thuggybear: Well, that's unfortunate. There's gotta be a solution that works for you, we just have to figure out what it is.

@Albertas: CC messages are MIDI, and work just fine for what we're trying to do in this thread. Instead of 90, though, it will be B0 (or whatever the channel number is)

@Dvlsadvct the problem is CC messages doesn't work like Note msg. The buttons do not send any message when you step off the button, its only send when you press on. So this set of translators won't work If there is a way, can you post modificaions in the code, so it would work with CC's?

Hi Albertas

That isn't a limitation of CC messages, but other the controller you are using. If it doesn't send an off message than Hold is not possible, since Hold messages are send based on timers related to the "off" state.

Double taps are possible, however. It would need to be based off of delays, though, and the single tap will need to have a 100ms delay, depending on how you want the trigger to interact.

You alright with just having a Double Tap and no hold?

Well, in better news, I returned the Voodoo Labs pedal, and wound up getting my hands on an old ADA Midi Program Changer. It's pretty great, actually. I'll have a hell of a time replacing it, but things seem to be pretty good for now.

It's temping to just pre-sample everything and run it off of Maschine, which responds to midi program changes. Sadly, you can not control the sampling mode with the foot controller.

Still, my hope is to be able to record all layers on the fly, and organically mutate things for each performance- I mean, otherwise, it sort of feels like I might as well just play with a backing tape. Sigh.

Well, what you could do, if you're willing to sacrifice the groups, is create identical groups for live shows with different trigger types and create a MT preset that stops any duplicated sounds with different trigger types.

If that makes any sense at all

To Mocker:

(I just posted this in another thread of yours)

"Trying to get intouch with you. I saw that you offered to share your MT and Softstep project with those who are interested. Well Im trying to do the exact same thing that youve managed to set up so I was wondering- does the offer to share still stand?"

Email: dan@geminiclub.fm

Hi Sorry I'm answering with some delay. Yes of course ! It's late tonight, plus the preset is on my other computer (MacBook Air I'm using live). So I'll send it to your email tomorrow. BTW are you Mac ? have no idea if the preset file would work as is on a PC. Not familiar with sending out preset files…

Great thank you! and Yes I am on a mac.

I just sent it a minute ago. Have fun ! And get ready for insomnia
And BTW I found the Softstep Midi chart there : http://forum.keithmcmillen.com/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=530
BUT it's possible that I used simpler midi messages to control the leds, here and there, when I just needed green or red with no blinking. I found those here : http://forum.keithmcmillen.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=372

mocker wrote:Hi Sorry I'm answering with some delay. Yes of course ! It's late tonight, plus the preset is on my other computer (MacBook Air I'm using live). So I'll send it to your email tomorrow. BTW are you Mac ? have no idea if the preset file would work as is on a PC. Not familiar with sending out preset files…

Hi Mocker.. hope you get this - I am desperately trying to get hold of the preset for controlling the LEDs on the soft step. If you could send me an email on superprimate@mac.com - I'd make sure you are sure to go straight to midi heaven.

thanks so much in advance.

J

midiUM wrote:

mocker wrote:Hi Sorry I'm answering with some delay. Yes of course ! It's late tonight, plus the preset is on my other computer (MacBook Air I'm using live). So I'll send it to your email tomorrow. BTW are you Mac ? have no idea if the preset file would work as is on a PC. Not familiar with sending out preset files…

Hi Mocker.. hope you get this - I am desperately trying to get hold of the preset for controlling the LEDs on the soft step. If you could send me an email on superprimate@mac.com - I'd make sure you are sure to go straight to midi heaven.

thanks so much in advance.

J

Email sent with all the necessary files. have fun.

mocker if the offer still stands i would LOVE to take a look at your set up as it is exactly
what i am looking for....
forrestroush@gmail.com

thank you in advanced

Attigo wrote:Ok, haven't heard from you in a while, so I'll just give you the code, I can explain later if you need me to:

Code: Select all

[x] Translator 0: Button Press (Hold Detection)
Incoming: MIDI 90 00 7F
Rules:
  ga=1
  gb=1
Outgoing: One-shot timer "Hold Detection": 2000 ms delay

[x] Translator 1: Button Press (Double Tap Detection)
Incoming: MIDI 90 00 7F
Rules:
  gc=gc+1
  if gc>=2 then gc=2
Outgoing: One-shot timer "Double Tap Detection": 300 ms delay

[x] Translator 2: Button Release
Incoming: MIDI 90 00 00
Rules: ga=0
Outgoing: (none)

[x] Translator 3: Single Tap Output
Incoming: On timer "Double Tap Detection"
Rules:
  if ga==1 then exit rules, skip Outgoing Action
  if gc!=1 then exit rules, skip Outgoing Action
Outgoing: MIDI 90 00 7F

[x] Translator 4: 2 Second Hold Output
Incoming: On timer "Hold Detection"
Rules:
  gb=0
  if ga!=1 then exit rules, skip Outgoing Action
Outgoing: MIDI 90 01 7F

[x] Translator 5: Double Tap Output
Incoming: On timer "Double Tap Detection"
Rules:
  if gc==2 then skip next 2 rules
  gc=0
  exit rules, skip Outgoing Action
  gc=0
  exit rules, execute Outgoing Action
Outgoing: MIDI 90 02 7F

In the example I just used the note 90 00 7F/00, you just need to replace this with your button input and I used 90 00 7F as the first button output, 90 01 7F as the second and 90 02 7F as the third, again, just replace these with what you want...

Hope this helps!

Scott

Hi, thanks for the preset.
I worked for me, but only the first time yo use the preset!
But I noticed that after that preset, you have to recall another preset to reset "gc" to zero.
I´ve included it in the project I´m working with
Thanks again.
Ruben

Hi Mocker
Would lve to get a copy of the files as well, but more for learning how to set up the 12step leds as stompboxes.

thanks!

fuzzfactory wrote:mocker if the offer still stands i would LOVE to take a look at your set up as it is exactly
what i am looking for....
forrestroush@gmail.com

thank you in advanced

Me To!
I'm trying to learn MT and SS and this would be greatly appreciated!

i was doing more research into your bome set up and
was like man i hope he gets back to me cuz i need this function
and am a bit overwhelmed ....i have used
bome's in the past and am sure i can figure it
out but man if you would be so kind to send me your work
i would be beyond grateful

funny part is i didn't want to be "that guy" so i will quote you
"Hi, anyone left reading this forum ?? Thanks for answering questions."

forrest "fuzz"

Sorry I wasn't more reactive.
I'll try to do that asap as I'm not home right now.
Found your email. Files sent.

slp wrote:

fuzzfactory wrote:mocker if the offer still stands i would LOVE to take a look at your set up as it is exactly
what i am looking for....
forrestroush@gmail.com

thank you in advanced

Me To!
I'm trying to learn MT and SS and this would be greatly appreciated!

PM me your email and I'll send the files.

Thanks!!!
For some reason I don't see pm on my ipad. My em is Seth lael @ gmail dot com
I took a bit of a break out of frustration but see Ing your layout would help explain some things that are over my head.

Cheers

Just bought a softstep and I'm trying to achieve the same setup as Mocker... Led feedback with ableton's looper.

Does the Bome classic free version cad do it, or will I have to buy the whole software (it´s for personal use only)?

Wonder if Mocker can help me how he did it (or if he doesn't mind, to send me its own setup files...)

thank you in advance

Hi gargas

Sorry for the delay on this. MT Classic cannot process the kind of work that mocker did because Classic does not allow rules or presets. You will need to purchase MT Pro to get this kind of interaction.

Thanks
Jared

Hi Mocker,
I have the SoftStep 2 and am just starting out with Bome MT so I could really you some help so if you could please send me all your files as well? I'm actually using the Mobius Looper plugin but I'm sure I'll be able to adapt them and use a lot of your files and also, I mean to learn a lot about Bome from them!
Thanks!
chumbolito@gmail.com

I too have never really grasped code in MTP and would like to try your Ableton Live Looper/ SoftStep preset if you are still offering.

And just for information, mocker never replied so if anybody else still following this thread read this and has received the files from mocker, please be so kind and share it, thanks!

I did send them on April 13. Check your spam folder or something or… whatever, man. Just resent them.

Sorry, it's my fault! I had setup a secondary email address and expected to receive email from it in the same inbox but it wasn't the case. I have to log out and back in to the other...and there were your emails!

Thanks, I'll now give it a shot. BTW, do you happen to use Mobius Looper? I can't get it react to a single/double/long press of a pedal with Bome.
Cheers,

Attigo wrote:

Code: Select all

[x] Translator 0: Button Press (Hold Detection)
Incoming: MIDI 90 00 7F
Rules:
  ga=1
  gb=1
Outgoing: One-shot timer "Hold Detection": 2000 ms delay

[x] Translator 1: Button Press (Double Tap Detection)
Incoming: MIDI 90 00 7F
Rules:
  gc=gc+1
  if gc>=2 then gc=2
Outgoing: One-shot timer "Double Tap Detection": 300 ms delay

[x] Translator 2: Button Release
Incoming: MIDI 90 00 00
Rules: ga=0
Outgoing: (none)

[x] Translator 3: Single Tap Output
Incoming: On timer "Double Tap Detection"
Rules:
  if ga==1 then exit rules, skip Outgoing Action
  if gc!=1 then exit rules, skip Outgoing Action
Outgoing: MIDI 90 00 7F

[x] Translator 4: 2 Second Hold Output
Incoming: On timer "Hold Detection"
Rules:
  gb=0
  if ga!=1 then exit rules, skip Outgoing Action
Outgoing: MIDI 90 01 7F

[x] Translator 5: Double Tap Output
Incoming: On timer "Double Tap Detection"
Rules:
  if gc==2 then skip next 2 rules
  gc=0
  exit rules, skip Outgoing Action
  gc=0
  exit rules, execute Outgoing Action
Outgoing: MIDI 90 02 7F

Scott

Not sure if anybody else noticed this but in translator 3 there is a bug in the rules.
Should be if ga==1 then exit rules, EXECUTE outgoing action

mocker wrote:I just sent it a minute ago. Have fun ! And get ready for insomnia
And BTW I found the Softstep Midi chart there :
BUT it's possible that I used simpler midi messages to control the leds, here and there, when I just needed green or red with no blinking. I found those here :

Hi Mocker,

Reading through this forum and this looks like EXACTLY what i've been searching for. I've been using a Boomerang III looper for a few years now for live work, and want to transition over to Ableton.. But i have the same problem you described in regards to the LED's (i mean, i wouldn't be able to gig with it without having Ableton open in front of me, which isn't an option).

So if the offer still stands in regards to the files, i'd be super grateful for some help! My email address is andyoneil@live.com.au

Thanks in advance

Andy.