Fix for non-functioning Ableton takeover modes?

I use a Novation SL61, Bome's MT and Ableton Live 9 . I find that Live 9 no longer supports takeover modes (pick-up or value-scaling) when doing I do bank switching on the SL61. Has anyone perhaps come up with a work-around using Max4Live which would make takeover modes work again?

Here's what I'm trying to do...for example:

- I assign an SL61 pot to Ableton Track 1 Volume Fader
- in another bank assign the same pot to Track 2 Volume Fader.

When I switch from one bank to the other here is an example of the problem:
-- In bank 1, I use the pot to change Live Track 1 Volume to 80%
--Then I switch banks and use the same pot to change Live Track 2 Volume to 20%.
-- Then when I switch back to the first bank, if I try to re-adjust Track 1 volume, it jumps to 20% as soon as I touch the pot. Not at all what I want. I want value scaling or pickup.

Does anyone have an idea to help me with this?
Thanks,
Gabriel

Hi gabriels

I'm not sure if anyone here can assist with the M4L side of things, but I'm seeing takeovers work fine in my copy of Ableton 9 with my Launchkey 49.

Are you using the direct integration provided with the Remote SL, or are you running everything through MT first?

Jared

Hi Jared,
That's reassuring, but confusing. I do run everything through MT because I do quite a bit of manipulation there. And so... I've been using manual mapping rather than the direct integration.
Are you saying that you can do bank switching and still not have jumps in Ableton values if a pot is used as I've described, in two banks, mapped to different Live faders in the two banks?
I'll try direct integration, but if I need to use MT, is direct integration still possible?
Thanks,
Gabriel

So there are two different points of logic here.

First, while using MT, there's no way to tell Ableton which bank is being controlled. If you are using 4 different banks of 8 knobs, all sending different messages, it thinks you actually have 32 separate physical knobs, hence there's no takeover function. If you, instead, use the Remote 61 with Novation's Automap you can use the various banks without any issues in Ableton. Unfortunately, if you do this you lose access to MT's remapping capabilities.

Setting up banks in MT is not difficult, as you know, but setting up soft takeover is much harder. Ableton uses takeover methods assuming the knob is sending the same actual message, just using a different bank to do it. I'm almost 100% positive this is handled via scripting. If you use MT, each bank will have the knobs send different messages, which Ableton can't handle very well.

Now, I THINK you can handle this using a combination of arming and selecting the active track in Ableton, but I'm not 100% positive. If you want to use Max4Live then almost anything is possible, but I have no experience using it and can't be of much assistance. Does that all make sense?

Jared

Hi Jared,
I ALMOST understand.

But I'm not sure about a couple of points.
First, let me say that I could not possibly give up the MT aspect of my setup. I'd explain, but it's probably not relevant here. So, I'd probably end up using three SL61's (which I actually own) rather than to give up on my beloved Bome's scripts.

In any case, I think I didn't make clear what I'm attempting to do. I'm not changing banks in Ableton. I'm changing banks in my SL61. I have only one set in Ableton. It just sits there, waiting for CC messages from the SL61 (via MT). When I change banks, I change the midi CC numbers the SL61 is outputting.
So, for example:

In SL61 bank 1:
Knob "a" outputs Ch1/CC1. In Ableton, this is mapped to Track 1 Volume Fader
In SL61 bank 2:
The same knob "a" outputs Ch2/CC12. In Ableton, this is mapped to Track 2 Volume Fader.

As I understand it, when I switch from bank 1 to bank 2, the Track 1 Volume Fader value will remain unchanged, at whatever level it was when I switched banks because there is no more Ch1/CC1 input from the SL61 knob "a". It's not until I return to bank 1 that I'll again be sending Ch1/CC1 messages.

In the meantime:
If, while in SL61 bank 2, I move knob "a", it will affect Ableton Track 2 Volume Fader only (by ouputting Ch2/CC12 messages. Track 1 Volume Fader, sees no change.

The problem occurs when I return to SL61 bank 1. Now, knob "a", having been moved while in bank 2, is no longer in the same position as it was when I left bank1, and when I start to move knob "a" again, the first value it sends might be quite different from the last value it sent to Ableton while SL61 bank 1 was active.

All this you know, and I'm being ploddingly obvious in the way I state it, just so that I don't mis-state anything.

In this context, I don't understand your point about telling Ableton which bank is being controlled. Ableton is just waiting to receive CC messages, and shouldn't care where they're coming from. I thought the reason for having takeover modes was precisely to enable this kind of bank switching in external controllers without value jumps.

Does this bring another focus to my dilemma? Can you understand why Ableton takeover doesn't work in my case?
Thanks,
Gabriel



First, while using MT, there's no way to tell Ableton which bank is being controlled. If you are using 4 different banks of 8 knobs, all sending different messages, it thinks you actually have 32 separate physical knobs, hence there's no takeover function. If you, instead, use the Remote 61 with Novation's Automap you can use the various banks without any issues in Ableton. Unfortunately, if you do this you lose access to MT's remapping capabilities.

Setting up banks in MT is not difficult, as you know, but setting up soft takeover is much harder. Ableton uses takeover methods assuming the knob is sending the same actual message, just using a different bank to do it. I'm almost 100% positive this is handled via scripting. If you use MT, each bank will have the knobs send different messages, which Ableton can't handle very well.

Now, I THINK you can handle this using a combination of arming and selecting the active track in Ableton, but I'm not 100% positive. If you want to use Max4Live then almost anything is possible, but I have no experience using it and can't be of much assistance. Does that all make sense?

Hi Gabriels

Thanks for breaking down your setup. While I was pretty sure I knew what you were talking about, I am now 100% clear. Also, I'm happy to hear that MT is playing such a vital role in your setup.

The issue arises when you are switching banks using MT. As far as I understand takeover in Ableton, it comes into play when the same knob has changed its position whilst controlling a separate feature. I could be wrong on this, but that's how I have come to understand it working on most software. Since you are changing what message Ableton is receiving in MT, it does not know that anything has changed when you go back. It thinks there are two separate physical knobs being moved.

Ableton doesn't know that the knob isn't supposed to be at a new value. So what you'd need to do is program MT to not send any messages until the value is correct, and unfortunately this is a rather painful process involving a lot of variables. There is a thread on the forum here.

But first I want to confirm, are you saying that takeover worked previously but has since stopped working? If that's the case I can try and get you in touch with Ableton support, since that sounds more like a bug.

Hi Jared,
Forgive yet another long long post. I can't seem to say what I need to say in fewer words.

I'm so thankful that you're taking the time to try to unravel this problem for me. I just cannot grasp the concepts here. First, I'll explain the test I just did...this time I didn't involve MT.
---I allowed the Ableton to recognize the SL61 as a Control Surface.
---I didn't use Automap, because my mappings are altogether different from Ableton's.
---I think (can't remember right now) I also had to enable the Midi Port Remote function in the bottom
half of the Midi Preference page.

I think you said that this worked for you, but I think I'm doing is exactly what you say below:
"As far as I understand takeover in Ableton, it comes into play when the same knob has changed its position whilst controlling a separate function".

I thought this can only happen during bank switching. For example:
In Bank 1:...............................knob a -> Track1 Vol
After switching to Bank 2:..........knob a -> Track2 Vol (and loses "connection" with Track1 Vol)
After Switching back to Bank 1:...knob a -> Track1 Vol again.
Without bank switching, knob a would always be communicating with Track1 Vol and there would never be a need to pickup or value scale.

You said:
"Since you are changing what message Ableton is receiving in MT, it does not know anything has changed when you go back. It thinks two separate physical knobs are being move"
But I think:
After switching back to Bank 1, knob a should be sending exactly the same midi message to Track1 Vol as it did before I switched to Bank 2.

Interestingly, I think I've seen the takeover modes work for one cycle of bank switching, but when I bank switch again, it no longer works. I can't swear to this, because I've become kind of disorganized in my "debugging"...but I think it's true.
Also, I know for a fact, that if I don't switch banks, but instead do this:
Use knob a -> Track1 Volume Fader ---set it to, say value 20
Use mouse -> Track1 Volume Fader --- drag the fade to value 100
Use knob a -> Track1 Volume Fader --- start moving the fader
Then, takeover absolutely works.

But isn't the idea of takeover exactly to allow bank switching?
And why would MT stand in the way.

Here's a (maybe) childish way to explain what I thought was supposed to happen.
If I look at this all from Ableton's point of view (I AM NOW TRACK ! VOLUME FADER IN A SET IN LIVE):
-I'm Track 1 Volume fader sitting here in an Ableton set, and ooops! Here comes Ch 1 CC1.
-Yes...it's mapped to me (Track 1 Volume Fader)
-I'll track along with the changes in Ch1 CC1
-OK...now there are no longer any changes in Ch1 CC1. I'm not going to change my value.
- For all I know, whatever controller knob was mapped to me is still mapped to me, but isn't changing.
- Little did I know that a bank switch had occurred. (But it has...and the controller knob has changed position because it was controlling some other separate feature.)
- Whooops! here come some more Ch1 CC1 messages. (I don't know this, but the user has switched banks, and has now switched back to the original bank and is moving the controller which sends Ch1 CC1 messages.
- In response, since pickup takeover mode is in effect, I'll wait until the Ch1 CC1 value is the same as it was a little while ago, and then start tracking again.
VOILA.... successful pickup mode!

But sadly this doesn't happen for me, and I take it that it does happen for you.
By the way, I did contact Ableton Support before coming to this forum for help. Marco Tonni wrote back:
>> Because of how MIDI assignments are handled in Live 9, the "Pickup"
>> Takeover mode only works within the same bank, and it is ignored when
>> switching through banks or templates.
>> The issue has been reproduced and tracked, but we do not have details
>> about if and when it will be tackled.

So once again I'm baffled. If Ableton Support says pickup doesn't work when switching banks or templates, then why are some people reporting that it does (you're not alone in this).
And what does pickup even mean if you don't bank switch. How can you ever get the value of your controller knob to be different from that of the Ableton feature it's controlling if you don't break connection with the feature by doing bank switching...changing the knob, and then bank switching back to the original bank.

Thanks again for hanging in there with me.
Gabriel

One more thing.... Marco (Ableton Support), did give me these links when I asked if Max4Live might be of some help here.

http://cycling74.com/forums/topic/midi-takeover/

http://cycling74.com/forums/topic/m4l-h ... ver-modes/

I haven't looked into this yet because I really want to avoid another learning curve before I ever get to play music again
but it may be necessary in the long run.
Gabriel

I completely agree with you, this should be easy and just make sense. Ableton's MIDI integration is... weird to say the least and I am not sure why Takeover isn't just working for you. I understand, though, what you're trying to accomplish and I'm unsure why it isn't working.

What I can gather from searching around to get a more serious answer, I think Takeover only works natively inside of Ableton when using Remote Scripts, as opposed to standard MIDI mappings. Max would fix this as well, but you're right, that learning curve will suck too. There are methods to involve soft takeover into MT scripts, however, the best example can be found here. Hope that helps.

Jared